tv Book TV After Words CSPAN May 18, 2013 10:00pm-11:01pm EDT
but the strength of the area of the elections is it relates to popular astronomy and observational astronomy robert ariel being a member of the star observers and the active one at that. also including the work of the major observatories the periodical publications and in effect -- reflect his interest of the microscope and as to restore the telescope as part of his work he did the research and published it is part of his major collection with the
18th-century telescope and our copy has a wonderful foldout a engraving and that is all mine as well. and then we also have the opinion piece and that is sending me exhibited together. and from somerville 1831 with an important observational astronomer for people who had a great deal of influence in the field. the collection is still growing. and we're glad they have helped to provide for future growth that is the library has a strong commitment to that as well in a cooperative arrangement is beneficial to both institutions and when you
tell us why did he come to washington and what was the message and what happened? >> william is a figure in history if he is remembered at all. a school superintendent from indiana and had connections to some of the early new dealers from the former secretary who had worked for him in the education capacity in new york and he comes to visit to see what is going on in the new deal and coming up with roosevelt when he was inaugurated in 1933. and went to a dinner party right across the river he testified coming to washington to testify he heard the revolution being planned junior level and mid-level people talking about of what they were
planning to do is essentially have the soviet style revolution to control the planned economy. roosevelt would not be suitable to this there would have to get rid of him at some point*. >> host: today compared roosevelt with? >> guest: the leader of their revolution you did not last. >> what happened to him? >> he was quickly dispatched and a voice from the inside with the plan for washington and and writing letters. >> host: a month before taunt -- congress? >> guest: he read into the congressional record and all hell broke loose. the press covering was a
24/7 news event and eventually he came to testify. and with the show trial. and that she was railroaded into oblivion. i found a quite fascinating says also that same year and same season another man came to washington in 1934 whitaker chambers. the most famous of the ex-communist american ex-communist to lead the party of the courier, organizer and came to washington in 1934 to organize and had in the agriculture department but they knew they had to get into the main line to be the influential department.
>> host: did he become disillusioned? more compelled and starts naming names? >> discussing how it was done and the irony is that whitaker chambers testified in capitol hill that had gone into oblivion to die of a broken heart and the representative from new york, o'connor actually confessed after william had died that they had turned the screws in an railroaded him and he begged forgiveness. and he too is cast into oblivion. >> host: what impressed me was the insight he had he said at some point* these people, the radical new
dealers that members of the communist party or had the sympathizers or fellow travelers or some would say they wanted a clean slate to destroy the existing american society and that something new would be centrally planned with the socialist economy and it rang a bell and where did they hear it? and i looked at the communists and them of the soviet union and it wasn't until 1944 and the english version said let us make a clean slate. the world is about to change we're not saying what us be
all and then in the next thought that they common meaning decapolis have done anything but steelwork? what work had created by bordering in the gift back that people want only what they are due. i'm not saying this is exactly like you have done it alone but in a ring very destructive at the same time of stalinist russia with the mass executions, the concentration camps tell me you are discussing it in your book. while this is going on in russia the masquerading of peasantry.
that you were a prosperous present in to make a big mark on the attitude and many others. but many have been repressed. so how come american society is continuing along the course of not soviet-style socialism but rapid increase of state involvement of economic management? >> guest: this is one of the most interesting ways to think of the new deal that a former representative of texas called an says the new deal of a communist front that functions with many innocent people that have no idea they are participating in the implementation of the
policy at of the soviet union. looking at the number of agents that got into government particularly in the roosevelt years, it does function as a government as you would see in the '30's of spain and france this was the popular period that was encouraged. >> host: and included a socialist parties but fdr did not call himself a socialist. >> guest: but he should have put the front is not just local domestic leftist with members of a communist entity knowing that the orders came from moscow. >> host: and who were the two most outstanding leaders or agents that we for sure not question mark but for
sure no were central positions in the u.s. government. and were exposed. >> i thank you are thinking about your his but it is important to note when whitaker chambers came in 1934 when william war came to blow the whistle whitaker chambers came to organize at the state department and the first agent in the self you he met on the day of arrival was alger hiss. >> host: but i also asked and. >> guest: harry dexter white was by no means alone but there is another agent in the warehouse called the the minister of assistance which was devised under roosevelt and to amplify his power with the ada you have powerful systems to do
things with force and energy. and they dominated different portfolios with china. and with the loss of china and this is something we know from the record some were just marxist not necessarily identified as agents. he was doing a lot of the economic policy and basically did one these soviet-style government. >> host: so did white but at the time harry dexter white came across as the new dealer but an economist who was in the keynesian tradition and a counterpart with creation of post-world war two global financial
architecture and it is incredible and mind-boggling. >> guest: that hundreds of agents not all of them are famous but they still have not been identified with 500 agents that they can all of the fall of the soviet union and for what facilitated this identification. >> there several archives. to go between russian and soviet embassies in council it back to moscow. this and with 1943 and the idea was to break the code to find out what the soviet allies really wanted so we could be better allies.
infiltrating it everywhere but it was hard work and they took 10 years with harry dexter white and roger gas by 1950 they were up on them but he was identified through the fbi there other investor -- investigations going on that a certain points along the way in the years to follow inside the american government there was knowledge of the tremendous buying going on while the government was having a quiet civil war
lover whether there is any soviet penetration. period of the 1950's is what most people think back to. there were many other senators and congressmen tried to get a handle. >> richard nixon and launched his career. >> but the government i believe is completely innocent who benefits to keep disinformation. >> three talking about elected officials? >> guest: correct but there are some points there is knowledge, understanding seeping through the administration and for example, harry truman when we get up to the alger hiss hearing of 1948 whitaker
chambers was spilling the beans on alger hiss spying and the country was divided over with alger hiss could be this by he was the main line aristocratic harvard state department carnegie institution because that is all he loved. >> host: also so we are witnessing to people treating the whole post world war ii architecture of the diplomatic side and the world bank and the special monetary fund on the other side was mind-boggling when i read the book about harry dexter white isman who
created the architecture became almost the first imf president and their kin at nominated president not harry dexter white who presented a spectacle but in fact, when they researched the archives was a staunch marxist economist. >> guest: he was more than that but instrumental in war he was a deputy to the secretary of the treasury. in imports and deputy not particularly skillful treasury secretary economist and relied heavily on which accounted for more than it should have and it would manipulate mercifully and
this is something that cannot in the '90s was the soviets at that time to be aggressive in the areas of the globe did not want to be attacked by japan. >> host: expected to end a been a war with germany. >> they did not want to worry about a war on the eastern plains so what happened was the kgb agent came to washington and had lunch with harry dexter white across the street from the treasury and gave him language to insert into the cable flow going to the united states and japan and arab diplomats are working very hard to reach that event to prevent the war. this is 1941 ready for pearl harbor and indeed that language went to what was considered as the american ultimatum for war at the end
of the november. >> host: it was a deal to made about the for that trying to cut supply on raw materials tea was still trying to prevent this. this also goes on in tokyo a very prized soviet agent with the situation to promote war party said you actually had a brilliant soviet influence operation. intelligence. here is the part of sdi is the most people don't seek about and it is the more important and even dangerous aspect. it is not a little secret here. >> host: you know, what i am referring to but those
whose drop the word to promote research and policy committees can be subtle. >> host: do you think our intelligence and counter intelligence is attune to identify and research and intercept such operations as opposed to a guy or woman to go with a little camera to take pictures of the boeing aircraft or steal some data? >> guest: no. it was undetected. >> host: back then? >> guest: i am sure it is undetected today. >> host: we will talk about that more. so we are entering the period of world war ii there
is a pact that is the stalling hitler the you could literally draw a line on the map of europe meshed gets all the baltic states one-third of paul poland. >> guest: 1/2. >> host: a little less than half. pieces of romania and all of the land romania because the satellite becomes a satellite from stalin point* of view he made a huge mistake because he put a buffer between him and hitler there is no but with it -- but for they face each other and in the meantime the soviets try to push
through harry dexter white to end at been a war for college you describe the role with the existing soviet penetration in washington in directing both policy and importantly, it aid to the soviet union before december 7, december 7, 1941, fighting with the nazis and november 3rd -- and june 1941? and the economic cover what is going on? >> something that has won nine of the american ap history books that explains it as aid to britain and the soviet union was a massive
supply line, a vacuum cleaner that pentagon. >> host: water resending? >> guest: everything you could imagine suits, dresses, aircraft, ta nks, copper wire, a real way axle cars, trucks, everything. butter. but the point* is what happened when gorbachev came out to meet with reagan i found this absolutely amazing this route led me into research, he denied the united states had supplied the soviet union during world war ii. and then secretary of state george shultz it was very startling to anyone who knew history at all and i started to look into that because i knew it was wrong and discovered gorbachev may or may not have even known the truth because there's so
much misinformation. >> host: everyone knows there was a huge supply. >> guest: but what we discovered that it was the cook to a list a delayed by armand hammer that was detonate a soviet asset and he had great business dealings of the soviet union and he started to push the notion thank god it to harry hopkins to at that time was roosevelt's co-president, . >> host: most important aid and advisor. >> guest: literally in the white house over three years. and roosevelt was very open but it was very hush hush and then you have the language written at the
treasury and actually have the soviet type of bill and this became a means of expanding the soviet union because half a million died and a chevy trucks >> host: most famous are the red army. >> host: echograph fighter planes, the jeeps. >> guest: but they denied they ever getting any of them but the point* was christian of 1970 actually said he does not know how the red army could have gotten through it without the dodge trucks and studebaker trucks. this is the incredible emotion through eastern europe so with the 20/20
quarter back. >> guest: why not? but put yourself in fdr shoes. >> guest: i have. and in the pacific that roosevelt was dead set correctly in my view to destroy hitler before the war with japan even started. for roosevelt, the center of gravity is on the german russian front step that is the conventional view. >> he did as the president of united states needed to
do to lead hitler dry. >> guest: one piece of information about what actually happened is wi guest: f information about what actually happened is with what the american people believe -- believe that is how we know what the with dispatching hitler was the main event it would have happened earlier what i found in my research what became the american gold is from the soviet union the relationship was more important than ending the war and what i found was there were many opportunities to have at least shifted in an important way so it was an incredible none of us know anything about this the into a german resistance as high as the intelligence chief and into the church and up and down the army and a lot of activity with different groups workie i or deal with
>> no credible awe thoor that i read says that the anti-hitler resistance hit a corral call mass. took to the july 20th of where it was obvious that the front -- if not collapsing, the german war effort is being rolled both by the east from the russians soviets, and this was post normandy landing, so it took them until the 20th of july to do the first attempt on hitler's life. >> that's not true. there were other attempts leading up to that. >> the russians horrified, and
there's plenty of evidence. the russians were horrified since 42-43 that the americans and possibly the brits will reach out to some elements in germany. >> oh, i'm sure. >> doing what you were talking about, cut a separate deal and leave the german to fight the soviet union. >> yes, i think that's true. >> right. >> or to fight the soviet union with the germans. >> so the attempt to pursue a policy of -- something less than unconditional surrender, that was 1918, and it led to a germany that came back quickly in 20 years and started to fight another war, so both the brits, the americans, and the soviets did not want that outcome. they did not want the separate -- >> actually, you're saying they didn't want unconditional
surrender? >> no, they came to cop collusion after they experienced the world war i that to leave the german war machine in tact in any way is not a good idea, it's not in the interest of either the united states or the british empire. >> there's other research there because the surrender policy was by no means greeted happilyily by leading military figuring in the u.s. and the secretary of state and other figures. >> of course, i agree with that. >> host: another situation where you ended up creating more resistance by the nazis, and, indeed, the fire bombings of the very city, creating more reliance on the nazi government for jeer mapp -- german citizens, and ended up with a situation where it was clear there were any number of points at which there were movements to bring down germany that got nowhere. for example, as early as 1942, the state department official
came across an intercept discussing how incredibly awful things were internally, utterly didn't think they could win a war or that anything positive would come of the horrible war, and he wanted to publicize it feeling it was a morale pressure for the jeer mapps that it would be a significant blow in the information war. he was stopped. he was stopped from doing that, and the idea was that this might prevent a second front. this might prevent a normandy invasion. the prolongation of the war itself had to continue until you got stalin out of russia, and if -- >> you mean, until stalin lost and moves -- >> no, moves into europe. >> right. >> moves into europe. >> okay. we have to take a break. >> okay.
>> we'll be back, okay? right? >> so it sound like hopkins is an absolutely key figure. >> yes. >> he is running the land lease, what else is he doing? >> harry hopkins, i think, is the greatest unsung villain that we never heard about, which is one of the amazing things is how he disappeared from the history books. he died in january 1946, and that, in some ways, was the last we heard of him. >> how convenient. >> how convenient, yeah, a lot of these people did that. >> right. >> he actually ranch of american foreign policies through roosevelt.
they had a special bond. roosevelt relied on him. for example, to give an idea of access, when winston churchill came to washington in december of 1941 for the first wartime conference, which went on for weeks, harry hopkins, franklin roosevelt and churchill ate breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day. this was a tight, symbolic president, and he was called the co-president. he's a controversial figure in the archives post-soviet because we have new information about him. i do believe he was a conscious asset. that p doesn't mean he had a membership card or a member of the communism party or signals transmitted into the ear. i don't mean acting in that fashion, but he was an agent of influence for -- >> who is -- [inaudible] >> well, harry hopkins is source 19. >> you believe that?
>> it's not my doing. it's the research of edward mark, a lates air force historian who did skull work. i read his thesis on this. it is like a 99.9% possibility that agent 19 and hopkins, agent 19 was one of the unnamed member of the taft between three, if you can have one with three, roosevelt, church hill, and agent 19, at which discussions for the date of the normandy invasion came out. there's more to it than that, and what interests me in terms of hopkins, harry hop tins, in spring of 1943, actually a little earlier than agent 19 incident was told by jay edgar hoover, the direct of the fbi, in a confidential letter that
went to hop kips because he was the gate keeper, that the fbi had been listening in third top diplomat in washington, delivering money and information and advice and orders, essentially, to a known agent of the american communism party out in berkley, where, of course, a loft of the analysis and exploration into atomic energy and atomic bomb -- >> berkley, california? >> berkley california. it was given nelson, his alias, money, and instructions to infull trait american defense industries. >> and the nuclear effort. >> and the nuclear effort. he identified the soviet diplomat as a known agent. in fact, probably the most senior member of the soviet secret service in america at the time, that was bill --
>> explain what that was. >> well, it was the means by which the organization by which the communism international, that they spread out -- >> communism international -- right. >> infiltrated and -- >> working for leftist organizations. >> exactly, the big organizer. >> i wrote my masters on that later on after they turned it down. >> uh-huh. so what happened was hopkins gets this incredible letter which i read, i have it footnoted in the book, and what does he do with the information? >> puts it in the car? >> no, goes to the soviet embassy saying the fbi is listening in. >> oh, my god. >> on their infiltration, and, indeed, it was so important, it was the first indication that the fbi received that they were trying to infiltrate the program. code name enormous. this was not a reflex action of
the patriot. what's significant about that is that we only find that out by accident. we find out that through another soviet archives which was the copied down notes of kgb agent that were spirited out of the country when he fled and came out in the 1990s also, in a couple big thick books, and the archives -- >> took 30 years to copy it. >> exactly, and this particular incident is only known to us through a soviet -- >> you know, at the time, did not know that harry hopkins went to the embassy; is that correct? >> oh, no, no, nobody knew. we only found out in the 1990s. >> this is straight out of "the americans," the series on television now in with the sovi. >> comaghtly. the other hopkins was he was also in the soviet archives was
instrumental in shifting, telling the soviet foreign minister on the first visit to washington how to talk to the president in terms of how to persuade him to do what stalin wanted which was to invade northern france. they never wanted the armies in the middle of europe coming up through italy to which churchill wanted, and what if his worst days was when they made a military decision himself, actually noted in the biography, one of the few decisions made to help the british in northern africa where they suffered a massive unexpected ce -- defeat, and the second front called for to take pressure off his front with germany was north africa. it's interesting when you go back and see the headlines. literally, they are in the books. stalin says, no, nice, north africa invasion, nice, but not second front.
the furyk for a second front, the ninth by the time frans comes along, was extraordinary, and hopkins was the leading booster of normandy, and stalin was the leading nonbooster of normandy. >> the second -- >> churchill did not want it. >> yeah, there was a delay from 42-43 #, and 43-44. >> he wanted to come up through the middle, be close to germany and quicker. >> of course, and also save maybe parts of central europe. >> correct. >> if it was done. as we know, actually, militarily because of the mountains in the middle of italy, the germans mansioned to stop the 43 advance. >> oh, no, no. it was quite successful actually. rome fell in june of 19444, another date we don't celebrate. the book is lost history. >> of course. >> why don't we celebrate that? hundreds of thousands of men in italy, and yet they wrote in the magazine, harry's magazine, life, the forgotten front.
why? i'll tell you why. it did not serve stalin. italy was seen by eisenhower, the strategic air command, general spot, and other military figures as a fantastic place to launch easy air flights over air strikes to germany. >> right. >> this was the complete opposite oft stalinmented, and the interesting thing was church hill was content to continue working in theball tick -- baltics and so on, but it was when stalin insisted on a southern france invasion. >> uh-huh. >> that was supposed to have coincided later on. that, essentially, gutted all the allied troops in the middle, and so that whole avenue was over, and indeed, colonel, general mark clark, one of the
leaders of the american forces in italy said the southern invasion was the biggest mistake of the war because it boxed us up. we could go nowhere. you were stuck in switzerland if you continued. >> that's what i'm thinking, even concord, all of the italian peninsula, the alps, the mountains -- >> go up think central, austria, yugoslavia. that was not the problem. military leaders wanted to do that. >> i want to ask you about the other big plum of the soviet ease espionage and influence, the nuclear program. >> yeah. >> it didn't occur to anyone putting the fear the head of the nuclear place head of the program had to suggest it's not only about industrial production and physics, but espionage. >> guest: right.
>> host: very clearly the top, top stat lin henchman is in charge of the nuclear program, and the information is coming through a huge pipeline from the americans program. >> guest: right. >> host: tell us about that. >> guest: this is one of the great, untold horrible stories we don't know, and this comes from testimony by an american, veteran of world war i, a businessman who reenlisted, came back in world war ii to lease, run the pipeline that was taken mainly planes and everything planes could carry across the northern united states to the soviet union. >> host: through alaska? >> guest: through alaska. that was major rain racy jordan. he discovered that strange things were going along that pipeline. he was very disturbed by the
kind of equipment, the kinds of plans. he, at one point, opened up the suitcases supposed to be under the seal to see what was going through, and he discovered all kinds of sensitive military and scientific plans, all kinds of maps of sensitive installations. other things, i mean, it went on and on. >> host: look like something legit the united states of sending to the soviets? >> guest: he didn't think so. he wanted someone to look, went to washington to get someone else there, and he fears nothing happened to it, but the most important thing that happened, he did not realize it until after the soviet union exploded their own bomb, and he realized that he had actually expedited. he was called the expediter. he actually expedited a scientific amount for ingredients for an atomic pile including the piping and including the eurorain yum. >> host: actually touched the
or rain yum. >> guest: he did. this was at the time when general groves, in charge of -- >> host: leslie groves? >> guest: yes, in charge of the mat hatten project at the time knew they were trying to spy and placed embargo on all sensitive ingredients including american uranium. none could go out of the country, period, and what harry hopkins did, was according to jordan, he found a way through canada. he got canadian stock, called jordan in the base in montana and told him that there would be this shipment coming through on the qt. it would not be on the books, and do the best to get it through quickly as possible and know about it because it was coming from a canadian courier, and sure enough, he worked for roosevelt, no suspensions, he did, yes, boss, of course, he was the big man in his world, so
he did exactlythat later on once the satisfying was clear, he realized he was a part of it and testified, testified twice. he was attacked mercilessly, and two interesting things to come out of that that i think we can talk about in this format, one was, he made five claims havinged too with the couriers, having to do with the shipping bills and so on, various points. four out of five were documented, and he was correct. the fifth one was the phone call with harry hopkins. that's his word. he was an excellent witness. another point to come out of this was harry hopkins' papers were organized by a man who is still living, and -- >> host: oh? >> guest: yes, and the papers were organized for a landmark biography of roosevelt and hopkins, called "roosevelt and
hopkins," mostly the biography of harry hopkins, by record sherwood, a celebrated, talented writer in the middle of the last century and involved in the roosevelt white house. there was a two-volume biography. i have mine all dog earedded and note as yours is there, and in that volume, it's clear that hop kips was the point plan on the development of the bomb. he was the liaison between bush, the lead scientist, and roosevelt, and hstles the liaison between roosevelt and churchill, there at the creation. when he testified that harry hopkins committedded espionage in supplying the ingredients to the soviets -- >> host: and warning of the soviet -- >> guest: he didn't know about that. he was discussing this. >> host: right, but it was set up. >> guest: it was set up. the editor of the papers piped up to "newsweek," saying, oh, harry hopkins doesn't know or --
uranium from jeer rain yums in a way to smear jordan, but he was the point man, very interested. he knew all about it. he was gone at this point, conveniently. >> host: right. >> guest: this is what happened. his friend, his allies, his fellow travelers, his, however you characterize them, were trying to put a lid on treason. >> host: the ones who got hanged or got electric chair were the roosenburgs in the big scheme of thing guilty as charged. >> guest: guilty as charged, but a smart part in a sense of what was going on in the white house. after that, what's going op in the trueman whews? the eisenhower white house? you end up with the translation, and you have code breakers coming up with these names that were famous americans or not so famous, but coming up with treason.
the thing -- them you have the famous chambers case at the same time. the impulse of the truman white house every time was to cover it up, press it, prevent it as being used as political against the democrats because roosevelt to truman in office from 1933 to 48. this has been a long period of infiltration. this will be -- the biggest disaster in american history, in my view, and you have at the end of the war, of course, you have europe dominated by the sowfout union on the one hand and china, and what followed the cold war. >> host: at 5 # 2 because they win. >> right. truman wins 52, almost 20 years of new deals, and fair deals, and the impulse was always to suppress. this continued under eisenhower, and i think what i started to
see was the complexity of american officials or presidents in terms of hiding soviet treason siding for american treason became a dominant characteristic of this period. >> host: anticommunism and as realist as they come, you know, tough as nails. >> guest: i don't know. >> host: the commander, what would be his interest in covering up it? >> guest: well, he was very, i think he was, you know, first and foremost, a politician, and in late 1943 at the teheran conference, he was one of the boosters of winston churchill's southern european front. he goes on at length in the state department papers. he goes on at length about how fantastic, this is the best way to get up through the pull river valley, do this, that, and the other thing, and light the, you know, the various islands and countries on fire, and in the yugoslavia area, and it's a very
striking comem -- common tear he presented to the allied commanders in late 1943. in his memoir of the war, and when i read that, i bet harry hopkins chewed him for that or general marshall, a hop kin's stooge at times it seemed very clearly. it's not in the memoirs. the famous memoir in europe, doesn't discuss it says he was always phenomenon normandy. he was a politician. he wanted to hide the past. those papers were not published until about 1961 when it was all over, when all the debate was over, so it's kind of an interesting thing, but there's another thing about ike. i think that eisenhower was come police sit, one the great crimes against humanity of the americans that the british committed that would be the soviet nationals repatriation, and there's another one, the abandonment of thousands of
american veterans, american veterans of world war ii after the war. >> host: in the soviet hands. >> guest: in the soviet hands. it's a horrible story. >> host: i'm sure a lot of americans -- >> guest: who knows? >> host: they don't know. >> guest: nobody knows. >> host: one of the first projects of research, and we found evidence that there were in the arctic islands, the island in the arctic, just horrible, horrible -- >> guest: horrible story, and eisenhower covered it up, and you move into the 50s -- well, he said there's no more prisoners, about a day after, there were two important sources, the key american general negotiating for them in moscow, and the surgeon general of the command. they both had figures of 15,000 to 20,000 americans still in soviet territory. the british had as many, and they were all lost, just written off, and in later years, you get
little stories here and there what they suffered, but it's an unknown -- >> host: did any of them manage to survive -- >> guest: not that we know of. we don't know of that. >> host: i don't know either. >> guest: no. >> host: we're talking about 1-2 million russian -- >> guest: two million russian soviet -- a lot of people who never actually were soviet residents because they left at the revolution, all swept away -- >> host: up to 20,000 to 30,000 brits and americans? unbelievable. >> guest: yes, andize p hour was directly approached by a former white russian general who pleaded with him in terms of not sending back a number of 800,000 of the 2 # million to go back to the soviet as the nationals were soldiers. they -- it was essentially, we gave back an anticommunism army. there was never thought in the administration in the golden circle of the administration,
roosevelt, that the world could survive without stalin, and there's a very interesting point right the day before the germans invade the the soviet union, june 21st, 1941, the day before the invasion, there was a very anticommunism state department official. i know most people, jaws are dropping, who knew there were such beasts, but the state department was full of them until roosevelt purged them, and harry hopkins helped. they wrote this paper planning for when stalin would fall because they expected a german attack and how we should not recognize a soviet government in exile in order to make way for an antior nonsoviet government after the war. when i read that, i just thought, i've never even thought of that. you realize how conditioned we all have been to the soviet narrative, to the american communism narrative. we have not even imagined a world without stalin in our history books. it was the unthinkable thing,
and this, i think, is sort of what i discovered in the research was that we have all been conditioned, the soviet, i call it the occupation of washington. they were so densely and strategically placed, able to control information. in fact, the office of war information that set up to control information during the war was riddled with communisms. >> host: massively penetrated. >> guest: how do you learn anything? you can't. this formed us. this is what i came to, shock after shock, that is why the book is called "american betrayal," because i felt betrayed by the history. it's a nonhistoryhistory. >> host: how do you explain that with all that penetration, the soviets, in the end, are losing the economic competition, and while coming very close to eating our lunch in the 1970s and early 80s with the victory in vietnam, with ethiopia,
angola, moe accident mozambiquey forgot some, and afghanistan, they lost. they lost the cold war. despite the penetration of key western capital, despite having probably thee best intelligence service, can you talk about that? >> guest: sure. well, i think that, yes, they lost, and yet i would say, did they really? i think we were come -- communist, and it was undermind by the experience. one of the most important dates in history was november 16th, 1943, when roosevelt, against the previous policy of four american presidents and six secretaries of state, chose to recognize the soviet union. here's why. it was an agreement, a short agreement, it basically says it's app agreement for the soviet union to promise not to try to overthrow the united states of america, not to have
secret codreys in the united states. they were already doing it, and we knew it. they were literally laughing, and they got this agreement at which point in order to keep the agreement, the united states government had to lie. they had to lie every day of that agreement, and lie -- i think they lied to -- >> host: lied about what? >> guest: for one thing, the agreement was a lie, and to keep the agreement, you had to look the other way beginning a whole cover up, it was a notion of complicity in the coverup. i argue that having recognized the soviet union where 5 million people were starved to death on purpose and recognition months later, oh, in, the crime -- >> host: not to germany or were not terminated until the war started. >> guest: still, just saying they are parallel evils, and that is something we have been
denied. we have never reckoned with communism crime. we have never reckoned the communists, and the russians did not, but i found out from, you know, vladimir, that he was very involved in trying to build a case against communism for yeltson, and at a certain appointment, he was called off saying i'm getting too much pressure from the west. >> host: oh. >> guest: now, this is staggering. >> host: explain why the west was so concerned. >> guest: it was the secreted unvailed in the book that end up creating a complicity in the west with soviet crime. >> host: the actual agents active at the time because of the office of the chancellor of germany was penetrated -- >> i don't think that was all it was. i think that's true, but i think there's something in it, whether it's a george herbert walker bush or remanents of various administrations.
the complicity in covering up in president afford, not having a meeting, that was an important moment. there was a notion, always, of hiding soviet crime in order to preserve american policy. >> host: in the remaining two minutes. >> guest: two minutes. >> host: roll forward to today, 21st century, the other totalitarian ideologies, radical islam, people who like communism china, whatever, and to what extent we can repeat the same mistakes? >> guest: oh, we're repeating them right now, and, actually, i do argue that i see the parallels, particularly strongly. communism china, we see this before, we understand how that worksment i think, though, that islam is the new totalitarian ideology that is infiltrating, and i think that we were -- communism was the first wave. i think, we, again, our morals, our ability to confront ideology, i think, we have taken
ideology rather than factings to the basis of our policies, and i think we're doing it again with islam seeing the same pattern over and over again. you are talking about communism in infiltration. it's the same story. >> right. is it possible today with so many tools in the hands of fbi and other agencies to read people's e-mails, to listen to people form, is it possible for these proponents of radical islam or any other ideology to be in the u.s. government or -- >> guest: oh, they are there. they are on the inside. look at muslim outreach, and there's muslim brotherhood fronts creating policy that prevented the fbi, the justice department, and the military from training, being educated on islamic jihad. that was the fact, that's why we